Curse

selber · Aug 02, 2007, 03:01 PM // 15:01

I don't think it was only a marketing issue. ArenaNet also never introduced the tools to run 3rd-party-tournments or -ladders in a smooth way. It's really hard to set up such stuff. Also, a system in the game itself for Sealed Decks or locking campains or certain skillsets would have been handy.

I was hoping a bit for the GW-Serveremulator, but it seems ANet has solved this "issue" (..).

The current ATS-system is very bad marketed, not accepted by the players and was introduced way too late.

zwei2stein · Aug 02, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Fury is basically this:

Spawn....Veteran kills you....you die....respawn.

The end.

I thought that system is tiered (so, rank 1 fight only people who are about same rank)

Maybe because there is not enough of people, for beta it was not tiered.

LONGA · Aug 02, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Strange thing that game in Beta state got into CPL. Cant say much about Fury because I only seen those teaser on their website.
Sure that big competition will give the game quiet a reputation.But isn't 3 million(a million if they count the box not account) copy of GW sold already enough to keep the game running.

Snow Bunny · Aug 02, 2007, 04:36 PM // 16:36

I've been reading up a lot on Fury. Seems like if you don't get in on it early, you're sort of fcuked if you want to play. It also appears that the rank system is random...spawn, die, indeed.
And call me pessimistic, but the game types are uninspired. Non-Tiered gameplay isn't really fun after a while....

GW's PvP is essentially dead, and god knows what's going to happen with GW:EN. This is because of ANet's willingness to cater to different gamer types, and subsequently, it upsets those who prefer to play one over the other.
You have rank elitists, and you have pve'ers whining about rank elitism.

It appears that ANet is getting loaded up with a more professional marketing team. If this is the case, and if GW2 will hold up the "no fees" credo, as well have different teams monitoring pve and pvp seperately, then ANet could truly produce a legendary game in GW2.

Seeing as how most mmo's are vastly similar these days, to produce a completely new title like ANet has is a respectable degree of success, despite their mistakes with the pvp audience.

And why the hell are you bringing Gaile into this? She's PR! Go yell at Izzy or something, Gaile's a PR rep, and she tells us what ANet wants her to tell us. If pvp is imba (which it is), you can't really complain to the person that serves as communication between playerbase and company, as she doesn't have the last word. =/

DreamWind · Aug 02, 2007, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etta

And what's this got to do with Gaile? She's a PR not Ad or Marketing.

There is a theory going around that the CR team did not understand PvP problems, did not relay enough PvP information to either the players or the rest of Anet, and essentially did almost nothing for the competitive community.

Thus the probability of a bigger market did not happen and the game didn't live up to its potential.

Theus · Aug 02, 2007, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

I've been reading up a lot on Fury. Seems like if you don't get in on it early, you're sort of fcuked if you want to play. It also appears that the rank system is random...spawn, die, indeed.
And call me pessimistic, but the game types are uninspired. Non-Tiered gameplay isn't really fun after a while....

A robust matchmaking system that ensures players always fight opponents of equal skill and experience

Trying reading up a little bit harder.

lyra_song · Aug 02, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theus

A robust matchmaking system that ensures players always fight opponents of equal skill and experience

Trying reading up a little bit harder.

I LOLed at that so much....what a joke.

Its better than GW, but certainly its not perfect and overmatched opponents occur.

Snipped from a Fury forum posted 7-22:

Quote:

Has this not been implemented for Beta or something?

From the officla Fury website:

"We understand that combat against other humans is only fun if the fight is fair, so our dynamic matchmaking system will always ensure a competitive contest against opponents of similar skill and playing experience."

and:

"A robust matchmaking system that ensures players always fight opponents of equal skill and experience"

Okay, that sounds pretty good. I roll my character. Complete the extremely bare-bones "training", and then head into Bloodbath arena.

Bloodbath game #1: A small game in a small map. There are a bunch of new players like myself . . and one player with more life, higher-level equipment, and high level abilities. That player beats everyone with no effort, proving unkillable by the rest of us even with as many as 3 people attacking her at the same time. No surprise when that player wins the match. I get exactly one fight not involving that player as she runs from red dot to red dot killing people almost as fast as they spawn. The radar makes it impossible to even avoid somebody like that.

Well . . . I really have no way of knowing if that was a player of similar skill, since it clearly wasn't a player of similar experience. At least I still gain character advancement from the fight, though I kind of thought the game was supposed to be more about the fighting than the character advancement. Maybe this fight was just a fluke, though.

Bloodbath #2: Game #1 DID turn out to be a fluke . . . a fluke in that there was only one player way advanced over me. In game #2, there was exactly one other player who wasn't way ahead of me in life, gear, and abilities . . and I only saw that player twice the whole game for a brief moment before they got 2-shot by one of the more advanced players, which was pretty much my own experience that whole game as well. Spawn . . red dot rushes towards me right away on the radar . . die in a fight that no amount of skill is going to win for me because of the inequalities . . repeat.

I decide to try a Vortex game next, after getting more abilites and making a "group" template. However, with scant instruction and no idea what I was doing, I basically spent the whole game running in circles trying to catch up to the action. Doing nothing for my team really bugs me in team games, and I had zero fun playing it. That will probably change once I have a clue what to do, though. The problem this time being my ignorance of the game type rather than anything from the matching system, though the lopsided victory the other team scored might have been the result of that as well for all I know or could tell. Oh well! Back to Bloodbath, then.

Bloodbath #4: This game was the worst of the lot, to the point that I am here posting how bad it is. There was one player so far advanced from everyone else in the game that he was literally un-killable by anyone in there, or by any combination of people who I saw attack him at the same time. To make it worse, for whatever reason, he decided to be a jerk and follow me around killing me for the easy points, since there was literally nothing that I could do to overcome the inequalities in our character's stats, gear, and abilities. Every time I spawned, he was on me again in seconds, the only delays being the few times he was still in the middle of mowing down somebody else . . or even several somebody else's at the same time. With the radar, I could not even avoid him to try and find even a remotely even fight.

Okay, so I have played in only 4 battles and only 3 Bloodbaths, and these people who have clearly been playing far, far longer are "of equal skill and experience"???? These people aren't even "of similar skill and playing experience"!

There is nothing to do in this game but fight the other players, but if fighting the other players is going to be about gear and who is the farthest ahead in their stats because the matching system can't tell the difference between a brand-new player with no gear and an advanced player with advanced stuff, then a lot of new players just aren't going to bother spending the time to play this game long enough to catch up. This game is about the fighting, and the fighting just stinks because the matching system is so poor.

My experience with it is the same, Spawn, get killed, respawn. No fun, no chance to learn, everyone's a jerk. No Thanks, not my game.

But whats happening is the pool of veterans overshadows all new players and theres not enough to match properly, so you end up with badly matched games.

Its basically the wall of difference in experience that kills newbies and makes it frustrating to get into it. Guild Wars PvP has the same problem, Fury being much more pvp based will have a bigger problem with it as time progresses.

Chaz Rea · Aug 02, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

The issue of fighting higher ranked people is mainly due to the low population of beta - the matchmaking system is forced to match different ranked people in order to get games occuring quickly. Hopefully that should be better when the game gets a greater population of players. That being said, one of the major factors in the game is knowledge of the maps and skills, which means although players may be evenly ranked, people from alpha and pre-beta will easily dominate most of the newer players.

The difference is ranks isn't a huge problem, its possible to reach rank 8 (the rank with the highest equip points) within a few days of play, so most people who do not instantly quit will be able to hold their own against the better players pretty quickly.

glountz · Aug 02, 2007, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

GW's PvP is essentially dead, and god knows what's going to happen with GW:EN. This is because of ANet's willingness to cater to different gamer types, and subsequently, it upsets those who prefer to play one over the other.

I still have hope, yes I know I shouldn't, in Devs. With every big chapter, there is an important skill balance. I don't say this skill balance is always right, for Nightfall for example, the sin changed from a PvP minor annoyance and a PVE Death Nova first target to an imba near-unstoppable killing machine in gank situations.
But they could change for GWEN.
Maybe PVE devs will make imba but PVE only SF-like skills, while PVP Devs will focus on changing balance for GWEN while introducing a limited number of PvP usable skill.
They put a lot of effort in GWEN. Maybe their work will pay. Or maybe not. Nighfall failed, IMO, by turning the Skill>time spent credo into a grindfest, even in PvP, through grind farmed titles (and they had the HA /rank example, but they didn't seem to understand the issue that, a grindable thing will be farm-exploited no matter the effort they do).
Maybe GWEN will repair the GW machine. But it could also turn it into a nightmare.
For my part, GWEN will be the expansion, the breakpoint that will get me to buy GW2 or not.
If GWEN fails, by improving again grind over skill and balance, I will definitively abandon ANet and I won't rejoice GW2 playerbase.

Buster · Aug 02, 2007, 06:21 PM // 18:21

It is always a matter of opinion of what a player thinks of his/her game but getting into the CPL wether you feel a game is bad or not is a huge plus for any game.

Kakumei · Aug 02, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

huge block of text

This was my experience with Fury, down to the letter. I place the blame pretty heavily on the complete lack of introduction and training, however--their "training" consists entirely of "this is how you move ok choose your profession k good luck have fun"

Frantic-Sheep · Aug 02, 2007, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Lawl @ CPL.

I'm sorry, they have World in Conflict as main event, which isnt even out yet. And doesn't seem to deliver what they promised, or at least not in the competitive scene. According to many testers and magazines. Which was in my opinion a stupid decision. They have FEAR (yay), and ditched some old games (which isn't particularly bad, but it is in this case).

And Fury is there for the spectators to join in, not a main stage event. They did it before didn't they? (cant recall what show/event.. PAX?).

I would say, please first go test, and balance shit out, let players practice the flow of the game, so we can have/see exciting matches. Not just some people who played the Beta and have a headstart, or some unbalancing and untested game in a grand gaming championship.

But yeah, would be fun to see GW having 3rd party tournaments, and its good Fury does their thing. Just that CPL is bad. 's all.

Age · Aug 02, 2007, 09:59 PM // 21:59

It was bound to happen it was just a matter of time.I would like to know where is Alex's replacement as NCsoft being the license holders of the game.It is them who hold the purse strings for Anet.I wouldn't say segregating pve and pvp are the answer.

Lonesamurai · Aug 02, 2007, 10:53 PM // 22:53

For information Age, Martin Kerstein is Alex Weekes replacement at NCSoft and has already done a lot on guru and also did a 2 hour Q&A session during my show this evening on the sanitarium, of which the transcript will be up and hosted 2moro aswell as the show...

We even discussed the lack of third party leagues for GW and it seems it is an issue with ANet as NCSoft would very much like it to happen, but he also said that something with EGL or another gaming league may still happen now big changes are coming

Diablo™ · Aug 02, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

as any game that hasn't been released yet, we'll just have to wait and see...

Age · Aug 03, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

^Rly.I haven't seen or read any of Martins posts here and I wonder what other changes.

Agyar · Aug 03, 2007, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I LOLed at that so much....what a joke.

Its better than GW, but certainly its not perfect and overmatched opponents occur.

Snipped from a Fury forum posted 7-22:

My experience with it is the same, Spawn, get killed, respawn. No fun, no chance to learn, everyone's a jerk. No Thanks, not my game.

But whats happening is the pool of veterans overshadows all new players and theres not enough to match properly, so you end up with badly matched games.

Its basically the wall of difference in experience that kills newbies and makes it frustrating to get into it. Guild Wars PvP has the same problem, Fury being much more pvp based will have a bigger problem with it as time progresses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

This was my experience with Fury, down to the letter. I place the blame pretty heavily on the complete lack of introduction and training, however--their "training" consists entirely of "this is how you move ok choose your profession k good luck have fun"

Wow! A game in the first part of it's open beta isn't perfect?! HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?!

To answer your misinformed rantings, the matchmaking system ISN'T perfect at the moment, on account of two reasons. Firstly, the fact that the population and rank spread in the beta population makes it difficult to match games entirely with equal (and close to equal) ranks. The system works much like GW's GvG system (currently) where it looks for equal ranks and after time, if it cannot find them, matches you against a broader range of players. And once again, since this is a beta, not as many people are joining and starting characters every day, so chances are you will have some matches against people who have high ranked characters after weeks of play. It's just a product of the low population.

Secondly, the matchmaking system itself is only a shell of what it will eventually be, since (as you would know if you actually read the beta forums) the current build of Fury being used in the open beta and preview weekends is months behind the one being developed internally. This system is in place to provide the beta with a more stable environment to test, while the content department continues to add things to the game and improve features (which add more bugs). The matchmaker is undergoing huge changes and is eventually going to be capable of matching not only against rank but against individual skill based upon your statistics, which the game will record. Couple this with a larger population of more varied ranks and you will see less and less of these one-sided matches.

The third issue you highlight, that of a steep initial learning curve, is already being addressed by both the developers and the beta testers. It has been highlighted as an issue by the testing community and forwarded to the developers for their attention in the upcoming build. Hopefully, new builds (and release) will have a better tutorial that actually teaches the game play modes, the trial system and even more about the skills themselves.

The fact is that all of these "problems" you identify and use to disqualify the game are part of the reason the beta exists - to test and provide feedback to the developers. Ultimately, if a PvP based RPG/MMO interests you at all, there's no reason why these issues should put you off from playing, unless you have huge problems swallowing your pride for the sake of improving the game.

Edit: Decided for further clarification I'd bold a few important points in the post.

lyra_song · Aug 03, 2007, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agyar

Wow! A game in the first part of it's open beta isn't perfect?! HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?!

Also a game thats just not fun for me in its current state.

Quote:

To answer your misinformed rantings, the matchmaking system ISN'T perfect at the moment, on account of two reasons. Firstly, the fact that the population and rank spread in the beta population makes it difficult to match games entirely with equal (and close to equal) ranks. The system works much like GW's GvG system (currently) where it looks for equal ranks and after time, if it cannot find them, matches you against a broader range of players. And once again, since this is a beta, not as many people are joining and starting characters every day, so chances are you will have some matches against people who have high ranked characters after weeks of play. It's just a product of the low population.

Ya..didnt i just say that?

*checks*

Quote:

Secondly, the matchmaking system itself is only a shell of what it will eventually be, since (as you would know if you actually read the beta forums) the current build of Fury being used in the open beta and preview weekends is months behind the one being developed internally. This system is in place to provide the beta with a more stable environment to test, while the content department continues to add things to the game and improve features (which add more bugs). The matchmaker is undergoing huge changes and is eventually going to be capable of matching not only against rank but against individual skill based upon your statistics, which the game will record. Couple this with a larger population of more varied ranks and you will see less and less of these one-sided matches.

Thats nice to know.

Quote:

The third issue you highlight, that of a steep initial learning curve, is already being addressed by both the developers and the beta testers. It has been highlighted as an issue by the testing community and forwarded to the developers for their attention in the upcoming build. Hopefully, new builds (and release) will have a better tutorial that actually teaches the game play modes, the trial system and even more about the skills themselves.

Again, thats good to know.

Quote:

The fact is that all of these "problems" you identify and use to disqualify the game are part of the reason the beta exists - to test and provide feedback to the developers. Ultimately, if a PvP based RPG/MMO interests you at all, there's no reason why these issues should put you off from playing, unless you have huge problems swallowing your pride for the sake of improving the game.

Its not fun. It just isn't. If it was fun, i wouldnt mind helping them make it better. But its not...Just not for me.

Kakumei · Aug 03, 2007, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Agyar

Wow! A game in the first part of it's open beta isn't perfect?! HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?!

Haha, looks like I struck a nerve. How dare they criticize my beloved baby!

Quote:

To answer your misinformed rantings, the matchmaking system ISN'T perfect at the moment, on account of two reasons. Firstly, the fact that the population and rank spread in the beta population makes it difficult to match games entirely with equal (and close to equal) ranks. The system works much like GW's GvG system (currently) where it looks for equal ranks and after time, if it cannot find them, matches you against a broader range of players. And once again, since this is a beta, not as many people are joining and starting characters every day, so chances are you will have some matches against people who have high ranked characters after weeks of play. It's just a product of the low population.

Okay, I played against people better than me after waiting for over a half-hour just to enter one game, so you're right about the lack of population. This doesn't make the game any more fun though so????

Quote:

(as you would know if you actually read the beta forums)

Why the hell should I have to read the forums to enjoy a game?

Quote:

The third issue you highlight, that of a steep initial learning curve, is already being addressed by both the developers and the beta testers. It has been highlighted as an issue by the testing community and forwarded to the developers for their attention in the upcoming build. Hopefully, new builds (and release) will have a better tutorial that actually teaches the game play modes, the trial system and even more about the skills themselves.

Okay good? I know it's a beta, I know they're likely going to fix problems, but that doesn't change the fact that at the moment, the game is an awful unfun pile of crap.

Quote:

there's no reason why these issues should put you off from playing

What if those issues make the game not fun to play? I think that's a pretty good reason.

Agyar · Aug 03, 2007, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Also a game thats just not fun for me in its current state.

In terms of "fun", of course it's not fun to get beaten up on but you always have to the option of persevering for a couple of hours (which is all it takes to get to a more competitive rank) in order to test the game and give your feedback on those early stages to the developers (who do listen, incidentally) so that it won't be an issue in the released version of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Ya..didnt i just say that?

*checks*

While you eluded to it, it had a fairly negative spin. In addition, there was another post I quoted which it applied to, so I felt it necessary to reiterate the causes of the issue. What I didn't was remind you, once again, that this issue is limited to beta (and dependant upon the matchmaker issues addressed further in the post). So when you "lol" at Auran's statements about a robust matchmaking system, you must remember the product you're playing is not always indicative of the final release and is for testing purposes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Thats nice to know.

Again, thats good to know.

Being informed is the first thing you should do before taking a stance on something, especially one so strong as to discourage others from trying something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Its not fun. It just isn't. If it was fun, i wouldnt mind helping them make it better. But its not...Just not for me.

Like I said, for the sake of making the release game fun, why not persevere just a little and provide some productive feedback on the forums. While I know many people treat betas as just a free preview of the game, there is testing to be done and reports to be made. It's an integral part of the game's development and a chance for the player base to really have some input. But just giving up within the first hour because you aren't winning matches isn't going to help anybody.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

Haha, looks like I struck a nerve. How dare they criticize my beloved baby!

More so that I was pointing out the ridiculousness of getting upset over a game having issues while it's still in testing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

Okay, I played against people better than me after waiting for over a half-hour just to enter one game, so you're right about the lack of population. This doesn't make the game any more fun though so????

You can read my thoughts on having fun vs testing and feedback earlier in the post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

Why the hell should I have to read the forums to enjoy a game?

Because you signed up to beta test it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kakumei

Okay good? I know it's a beta, I know they're likely going to fix problems, but that doesn't change the fact that at the moment, the game is an awful unfun pile of crap.

What if those issues make the game not fun to play? I think that's a pretty good reason.

See previous reponse.